Live Streaming on Twitch, Earning a Living as a Gamer, TikTok - Jon Radoff and Swebliss

Swebliss: I think as a streamer in general, whether you're your male or female or just online is like If you choose to be a streamer then you're You're choosing to get hate. That's what people that's how people see it So it's like but you know if you don't want hate you shouldn't you shouldn't be a streamer They're basically part of our our job description and that is one of those things that try to work against In this episode John sits down with M.A.B. aka swieblis She's a content creator who bridges the gap between technology gaming and lifestyle and she's passionate about entrepreneurship Innovation and communication Let's jump into the interview

Jon Radoff: Emma welcome to building the metaverse. It is awesome to have you here I think today we are going to have a great discussion that is going to Help inform and educate people about a whole dimension of the game industry and the metaverse that Is really an untold story for most people which is the job of being a live streamer and playing games and bringing Experiences live to people who are out there on the internet trying to connect with people trying to learn about games It's the original play to earn I think and we'll return to play to earn later But let's just start there. I would love you to just share a little of the story of your journey first of all like How did you become a streamer? How did you get into it and is this like if I if I wanted to just start live streaming could I go into business doing that like Tomorrow if I if I wanted to do that like I'm curious about it So tell tell us the journey

Swebliss: Every journey is different, but Yeah, my journey is Was a bit strange because the first the first time I saw twitch that was like nine years ago now and I didn't at all understand. I mean I hadn't even seen a YouTube or let's let's play on YouTube only like cat videos and you know the things that you see going around Facebook and So when I saw twitch the first time it was actually a developer who showed me twitch and that was developer Minecraft not And I asked what he was doing and he said he was watching a speedrun And I'm like what is a speedrun and he showed me a Link to twitch where's all this guy sitting being like Yeah playing games and I mean my first reaction was like what you just playing the game or you're not actually Are you playing with him you're just no? No, are you going to play with him? You're waiting to play no? He was just watching and I thought it was kind of weird in the beginning, but then I watched Which is funny like yeah, but I was like I did not like I'm like that's so strange, but then I got totally just engulfed in in twitch and started watching it and Just I like got it. I mean it's kind of like watching Oh, you can compare to watching in sports right like football or whatever only digital right So I think I started doing that and then six months later I finally took the job and started playing and the reason why I did it was not to become Like a famous Streamer or or making money out of streaming actually I didn't even know you could do that at the time I I just wanted to play with people pretty much anyone except my dad Nothing probably played that but he was the only person I knew that played games and I got to play with him And but not my colleagues that didn't like games So I was like wow amazing this big community for like gamers that that like the same thing I do and And you know like just being able to play multiplayer games with people Not just running around in a big world So yeah, that was the main reason actually that coffee started just Just the games and the community and And probably the big yeah

Jon Radoff: Yeah, how long did it take you before it went from You know the beginning to like you could really earn the equivalent of a reasonable living from doing oh

Swebliss: Wow Yeah, well when I started streaming that there was very it was a very different the Was a very different space and it is right now and way less streamers Also, I think I did have a perk Well, it was because it was supposed good and bad kind of that I happen to be a woman because There wasn't a lot of women on twitch in general In fact when I saw the streaming people were Almost like well, there was this rumors going around that it was actually my my Rumi to happen to be a guy that was the brain behind my stream and I was like rented Like a rented face or something in order to like you know He was the brain behind it all and there was like a spears of theories about this in the beginning because it was that weird kind of Also, I'm not a pro at all the games

Jon Radoff: I want I want to come back to that whole topic of like online toxicity and what it is like for you as a woman and how that's changed Oh, yeah with the audience so let's definitely bookmark that and come back to it pretty soon but Let's one thing I just wanted to

Swebliss: It was not really toxicity back then it was more like they were more stunned they were quite they were much nicer than they are now It was more like wow

Jon Radoff: Yeah, well actually that's sort of what I'd love to get at is how has this changed over time because what you just mentioned one thing Which is when you got started it was not nearly as competitive as it is now There's far far more streamers which I think is partly a reflection of How big the audience has grown over the last decade but also that this is an income opportunity for a lot of people to play games and Demonstrate how games are played so let's let's spend time on that for a moment How has the business of this and the whole environment for streaming changed over the course of time and and kind of puts in Years to it so people understand where we're coming out this from

Swebliss: Oh absolutely so when I started it was I think in the end or yeah in 2013 beginning of 2014 so it was a long time ago Twitch had kind of Not so long ago become twitch and it was before that it was like just in TV where they tried to do this Like kind of another like they had another branding. They wanted to be streaming in general But people didn't get the concept I think back then so when they niche down and just focus on the games That's when twitch really started to take off and Then I came along and I've seen there's been so many changes to the platform during the years You even now like you know things that has happened that you never thought would happen and I mean both good and bad There's been a lot of different trends obviously in what kind of content has been streamed because when I started You were only allowed to stream games and you had to have yourself in a little tiny like window The classical like you know, let's play kind of And you were not allowed to do anything else you were not allowed to have a full screen or just have a Conversation with the viewers more like a talk show or put the cost so back then it was all games and then I think That changed maybe 2015 or so I'm not really sure exactly on the Spend so many years now, but it started it changed when you could actually start doing other things and Then I think I was also part of that change actually because how I got my stream to kind of Well grow and and what I did because you always want to try to find something unique and something that is You right I've seen people grow on twitch for all kinds of reasons whether they are you know dressing out and pretending to be a character

Swebliss: Or they're coloring their hair pink you know, that's just fun to see I guess so well

Swebliss: There's so many things I can make a stream really go big and for me it was Actually breaking the rules I broke that rule where you only allowed to People a games because I started doing digital art and I tried to kind of shape it in the beginning to You know, I was like in a willow aircraft category and and play and try to draw a night out and you know I tried to shape it like that And I was kind of just hoping that they would be okay with it I was sitting there kind of waiting like for the band or something to show up But it never happened and I because I broke the rules obviously people would love like they love to tell me that it was against the rules So I got a lot of viewers just just for that And then I think a lot of people joined that are not at all they weren't interested in art There wasn't a creative category so they they were not interested at all and they joined maybe just to be kind of Raging a little bit at first, but then they realized that hmm. This is quite interesting You know because you see this I do very detailed Cartoon-ish students right so you see this entire thing grow on the stream In front of their eyes and they also could be part of it by coming up with ideas and you should draw this or try to do this Even if they're not artists maybe themselves they got to be in on the creative Like a new experience so that is what really got me to to grow and I It was worried to be banned, but then I saw that switch-owned staff was actually watching my stream They were lurking in my stream Yeah, so I was like okay, I'm just waiting for it, but it didn't happen and this I saw several So I think they started like sitting and watching my stream like while working in the day Maybe they were in the beginning was like okay, we have to ban this but then they were like this is pretty nice And they also stayed and so eventually what I did is I reached out to my partner manager Since I was already a rich partner by then and so and we have the perk of being able to directly Contact the twitch especially when you well at least back then when you were so new you got to know everyone like I could go out and grab a beer with the developers It was not the biggest company it was before Amazon also So yeah I I basically reached out and I said that I know that I've been breaking the rules you might have you know this that is like I mean if you want to I can I can just you know keep playing games on twitch and I'll just move my art to YouTube

Jon Radoff: And you did an incredible you did an incredible amount of product Research for them like they should have been super happy and grateful like the right thing to have done would have been like Hey, we've got to give her some Equity in twitch or something that was probably already owned by Amazon by them that they should probably you should have gotten Comped for that is what I'm saying because you helped them figure out what the product really should become and it's it's actually really interesting to look at Entrepreneurship generally and like the number of times that the new product really was about Breaking the rules in some fundamental way and hopefully in a good nature way which which you were doing and then building something around that So that's really interesting because I think people hearing this are Learning about what it is to be a live streamer, but they're learning a little bit of entrepreneurship as well What else do you want to kind of use your platform to do in the future? I know you've had a lot of ideas. Is there anything you think?

Swebliss: Well, I mean in the beginning is a lot about Well having fun of course. I just started playing games But then when you realize it can be a job that is actually wow. This is a business Can do something out of this. That's when I started like experiment thing trying to think out of the box and come up with new

Swebliss: And

Swebliss: Well the creative section actually they did start so think it was a couple of months or Something after I started drawing they actually opened up the creative category and there was the first different category on Twitch There wasn't things So and they I think they did that together with Adobe or Adobe. I'm not sure. I see that but So and that was like a launch or so like that opened so many the words for so many people in all kind of creative fields, right? And I wanted to just continue that and I think After like all these years because now we're doing this for so many years and I know like I know this industry like Like my own pocket kind of right so it's I Realized that it's one thing that I miss on Twitch in general that I don't see a lot and that is Education I think I mean just learning things so I haven't seen a lot of people that actually use Twitch as a platform to teach Others whether it's I mean it could be someone teaching someone else code right like or coding Now I've also I've started seeing musicians that like write their songs and they also play their music live on stream So that is like a little bit so you can see it like kind of developing more and more and more but there's not I don't think there is even a category for it. Yeah, so that is what I want to do like moving forward I think and kind of using all this knowledge that I built in order to Teach other people to do the same thing pretty much just you know everything from thinking out of the box to how do you build the live stream or Well, it's not just a live stream because it's the entire social media as your entire reach and And everything that goes into it Because you also see a lot of things Developing that is not so positive right so I wanted to kind of work against that And you also see a lot of rumors a lot of you know people think They see people write things in shot. They really don't know what they're talking about very simple and they believe it It could be either young young guys or girls, you know, they see the people that

Swebliss: They know it all right and they mimic and

Swebliss: You know that kind of just that becomes like an avalanche right that just gets its own life and it starts trends that is not Maybe the best trends Or at least not in my opinion so that I want to work against that and like the Using what I've learned for good to help other people

Jon Radoff: That's very one thing I think you were just returning really to this subject of of online toxicity So I mean, let's talk about that for a bit like what should people know about this?

Swebliss: Oh wow Well, I think especially the last the year or or one and a half to there is starting to like show up more things about like toxicity and a toxicity around twitch and so on but before that which hasn't really been in focus or the gaming Aiming in general. I don't think has been a lot in focus. It's been YouTube right like the ad apocalypse on YouTube and Some blogger doing something they shouldn't then and before that it was blogs, you know like people writing things and I think that it's kind of Finally in my opinion catching up to the live streaming section Because say I don't know it feels like gaming has kind of been under the radar like and it is still to some some degree because just like it can be online everywhere People talk about the internet like it's you know It is the internet and then it is IRL like real life Which almost say that the internet is not real even though people spend many times like the majority of almost their lives They're they're you know their time on the internet So I think I created toxicity and also I think that you know no rules no boundaries really in from both in games many times and in social medias People just in going wild right especially on twitch twitch was It's probably the most toxic platform It's getting better, but it has a long way to go and because in the beginning You could like there was no rules on how to regulate your shot So people could just write all kinds of like racist or Like homophobic. I mean people could write anything just you can see these huge streamers with chat that was just falling right with Every bad thing you can think up pretty much and and many of them started growing because they didn't Monitor it like they they they just let it be and they were just playing games and they pretended they wasn't there and that was kind of their way of growing So I think for guys the toxicity Can be and I say guys because for women it's not really the same But for guys it's kind of been like Like a bro thing like a cool thing like you know No like freedom of speech and no rules and you know And that kind of took a life of its own especially on twitch and twitch like I said has gone under the raider so People have been able to just to create the stuff until until quite recently so Yeah That if you're a lot of things

Jon Radoff: I hear a lot of things in what you're saying so for one of the the common Megatrends that that I talk about in this video series is this idea of the online world is Just as real as our physical world, but not everyone has always Thought of it that way like certainly 20 years ago. It was unusual to think of it that way But these are real people and the relationships you form with people those are real You know these are real people's lives. So it's all based on reality yet People who are coming at it from games. Maybe they think as you were just saying that because they're anonymous And it's like just a game to them and they're sort of flexing their ability to express themselves any way they want they can just Feel that it gives them license to do whatever How is that you said that it's changing though? How are you seeing it changing is that technology is that culture is that Twitch becoming more involved like what all of the above I'm just curious

Swebliss: Honestly, I think there's this a couple of reasons well first off probably like this bots becoming better at catching it right so that's like the evolution of tech and AI Yeah, but mostly I think is that Gaming has become so big in general like did like well We all know how huge the gaming industry has become and in other Company has finally started to open their eyes for that and being like What happened like all those nerds, you know like all those nerds that no one want to hang out with all of us out in there like The rulers of the planet kind of you know like so there We were like, you know like like the turtle in the hair kind of um and then I was definitely part of that the nerd for by the way So and I think that is opened the eyes and when people start to open the eyes of the the revenue and the money and how big it is It also started to be more quick bait and media started to highlight things and you know Things that are happening in the industry in general like you like What's happening with the blistered and an activation and and And then you know also social media is like Twitter during the elections and and things like that and That like it's come closer and closer to that and twitch I would say it's kind of recently starting to be In the line right or like starting to be focused in media before people didn't even know what that was like even though Well, there was a lot of a big audience on twitch, right? The the general public the people they were not like hardcore gamers and Um, they they really did not get it like I even had to describe what streaming was, you know like um So and now people started to realize it and and become interested and And that is why it's changing I think because people have to be held accountable for For what it's

Swebliss: Like the people's kids and whatnot. I think it has to come from a lot of different

Swebliss: I this is like my like really if I had one passion, right? It's about this So I think it has come from a lot of areas is both like media media has to focus on it people have to be aware of what's going on Um, I also think the parents need to be part of their kids life because you know like I I basically get the first like first row to seeing Uh, the difference between the kids where the parents are a big part of their online life Um, and the ones that don't and it's a big difference like you keep hearing about soccer moms and and pageant moms and dads and But you never hear fortnight moms right or roblox moms Even though they spend just as much time if not more, you know, in fort i and roblox Yeah, I think they're

Jon Radoff: To be a roblox and minecraft dad for sure because I have kids I have two 10 year olds and they're they're both in Those two games more than just about anything else while I shouldn't call roblox a game It's a whole metaverse of its own of different experiences there they're in both of those all the time and we have Dinner conversations about it. We have this ritual in my family where when we're at dinner we go around the table and I say like Okay, what was the best and worst thing of your day? And It's interesting because I learn a lot just even from something like that like what kind of experiences they're having online And I think my kids are learning about to like identify toxic behavior. I hope that's what they're they're doing and then reject it actually like my son Well the worst thing that I experienced last night actually was he ran into this toxic person who is using like racist language and stuff and Yeah, I serve a rebel against this guy and and Through him out. So I think that's good. So that's that's parental involvement though. What what else would you want to do to parents?

Swebliss: Well, I mean what you just said I think it's just amazing It doesn't have to be just you know playing along with your kid But it's just like kind of being a part taking a part of that world and and also I think allowing it because When uh well this is also maybe a difference between women and men but and it's also getting so much better, but you know Uh always has always been allowed to play games way more and it hasn't been such a bad thing But when when girls did that was like, uh, you know, shouldn't you be like playing with dogs or go out and You know sit not sit in front of their computer. I mean I used to wake up five in the morning So I could play before school right before everyone else woke up. That's when I played for like three hours That was my my time on the in the day, right Because I couldn't talk about it in school and now Women and girls are me so much more allowed in the space So has a long way to go way to go, but it's getting so much better and I'm so happy to just Hear girls being able to talk about it. So I think for parents to kind of Highlight that or like to do to yeah to like tell the kids that it's okay I mean you can get an amazing I keep saying to all parents that I talk to even a taxi driver Like just the other day that started talking about his kids and how much they played games and you know They should do sports instead And not a basic I basically said that well I told them how big the industry was and I told him like how much these like 16 17 18 year old esports actually can make and and what a huge career they can have if they're interested in that field whether you know like it can be developing or Or like just all the mid-evers is set is popping up right so I think I opened his eyes

Jon Radoff: Yeah, you just hit on a really important topic which is I really want people to appreciate All the new kinds of jobs that are being formed in the metaverse. So during the course of this conversation so far We've hit on a few so You're doing one of those jobs which is being a live streamer which is live performance and you're doing it both in games as well as art and Creative processes and bringing your community into that there is esports where people actually play on professional teams and compete and tournaments and can get pretty significant Payouts if if they win at that, but that's a that's another job like there's a so many new forms of occupation that are born around this And I'm really intrigued in particular by this whole collision between the creator economy people who are doing things like you are Which is art plus Performance and all the all the the meta so to speak the thing that surrounds Game experiences, but it's also creating something new as well like and and I don't think we know completely yet even what format will take because there may be artists like you doing Volumetric live streaming in the future in 3D immersive space and people are like there With you and maybe people are learning how to do art and you're seeing them work on there like there's so many things that we're gonna Be able to do with this in the future that I think is just mind-blowing But it's new. It's it's not just a just a little bit of an extension. It's it's gonna be a whole new set of experiences

Swebliss: You mentioned using just this real as real IRL right um No, I think I just I waiting for the day. I always say that you know whether I'm like 30 or 80 I will always be streaming or doing whatever it is you do there I mean I'm hoping I'm really hoping that you know technology has gone so far that when I'm 80 or something I can still just put on a headset or something and then like become 20 and get wings Like fly around in you know, um, that's what I'm hoping at least so That would be awesome and with the jobs. Yeah, the jobs that will come with that. I mean people already build worlds, right? Online whether it's in games like when they mod Grand Theft Auto right which is one of my my main games or Minecraft or Roblox And just imagine what they will be able to do in the future and the jobs that they can have In like in that space in the future. So I think it's definitely something parents should

Swebliss: um

Swebliss: Yeah, just be aware of and and try to like it's a good thing especially. I think with all All the AIs and all the technology that is popping up all the like traditional normal jobs will like just become less and less and less and I think more and more jobs will actually be in the metaverse and in In spaces like that so Um and prepare kids for that I think um but still you know moving around still being healthy as I think it has to be balanced right so Is all about the balance and the conversation talking about it Um, I think it's great what you said with that you're talking to your son about like What's happening in games and that you're letting it be a real thing because I think many parents are like, uh, oh yeah, yes You know if someone would say I was someone said something mean to me They would be like what really who did that you know in school But if uh if it was like in a game, they would be like oh you mean the game. That's just a game kind of

Jon Radoff: That would be how it was just I react to that in the past

Swebliss: Hmm, and I think there's even if there's so much science now that even proves so I read this um I read this uh An article where they've done a test to see what areas in the brain lights up when someone is Basically saying or you're seeing something mean about you versus when you get physically hit and And the the same area lit up when when they just like saw it like emotional right versus the The physical and I think that that just speaks volumes right how important it is to kind of just Uh be nice be nice to people even online right um and that is just as important as it is and I hate saying real life, but I don't have meat space you know why the the Yeah, we need a better word for

Jon Radoff: For me to say is is an okay word. It's it's a little bit neuromancer. William gibberish. Um, I I think of it as physical space versus virtual space. I don't like using the idea of real Because I think online are really which is all premised on our relationships and our self-expression In the space is what makes it real. I have a feeling that You know millennial and Gen Z parents are probably already approaching This a little bit differently than say like so I'm Gen X and I was pretty weird You know, you mentioned nerds ahead of time. I was like ultra nerd because I You know grew up as a teenager playing dungeons and dragons and computer programming when both of those on their own were super nerdy Um, but then I met my future wife in an online game and we started a games to you So we were like kind of ahead of the curve in terms of the nerdiness and like the online world And the online world turning into real relationships But I I recognize that I was very Rare for that for my particular generation

Swebliss: but

Jon Radoff: You know Gen Z and in particular has actually grown up with all of this you would think that The way they're experiencing it and the way they're going to I mean most of them haven't had children yet But as they have children They're going to really approach this differently because they saw this toxicity that you referred to And hopefully didn't like it don't want their own kids to experience that

Swebliss: Yeah, yeah, and that's I mean, I don't have kids even though I work a lot with kids And I work with kids even before streaming But I don't have my own but I I'm the same you know, I was I think was 1999 and I'm born 86 So 1999 in Sweden that's when I got 100 In downloads so we were a bit before like It was very very fast obviously and I was I think among the first people in Sweden I was just lucky with where I lived so I got out on the internet um Very early or like more like the internet as it is today, I guess um And uh, so yeah, I've like I know exactly how toxic it is and and growing up with that I'm like that is such a that's probably why it's such a big subject for me because like I would never want my kids to like Now when you realize when you can see it with like But sure I is right like you like oh no I always kind of joke and say that I'm very happy that I was not like that streaming Lifestreaming things like that did not exist when I was like 13 or 14 Because I would probably do a lot of stupid things Um, especially back then because you know back then parents did not They they didn't even know like my mom was learning word right Um, but there wasn't life streaming. There was there wasn't like that. I couldn't even send the like The bad photos to people. Thank God. I could only be in a chat like takes you out and be like It's a hot girl 14 or something But so now it's a totally different It's an animal right and that's why all the people have to be or aware But also so much more opportunities like there's so many good things that comes with it So at the same time I keep telling people don't try to like go back in time Because it's not gonna work like trying to work kind of against technology to be like we're gonna become farmers today We're not gonna have internet. I mean, it's not I don't think that's the solution the solution is just to keep Innovating and and making what we have now better and more secure and And also just teaching people that you know the more people realize that the intimacy is real or you know They just stop thinking about us then I think that was changed and it's already like you said changing Um, I was like I got like front row for all of those people that I like to call them like um, they had the i-fad nannies right Uh When parents use the ipad instead of actually maybe parenting as much um because it's nice But they had no idea what the kids were actually doing on the ipad I I got to see that so

Jon Radoff: Yeah, I think that's basic media literacy right? So people need to become literate in games and metaverse and Twitch streaming and esports if that's what their kids are interested in because on the one hand I My personal feeling is trying to shut that all off Probably doesn't work like kids know how to kind of tap into it through some other means anyway So given that that your kids are most likely Going to get involved in some of these things if they want to if they're interested in it. It's really Important for parents to become literate around it yeah Spend time with your kids and see what they do and get a feel for the experience and talk to them about it I think the talking part is really important and ask them what kind of experiences they're having there and and what kind of things they're doing Because it can be enormously Creative it can be expressive. It's a way to socially connect with people in a positive way Right, it doesn't have to be the toxic aspects that we were just talking a lot about like there's also real human connection being formed through All of these things and and that I think needs to be celebrated just understand what the whole spectrum of experience can look like and be talking your kids and also educating your kids about You know how to confront some of that in the online world

Swebliss: Yeah, exactly it's talking and not I Was it talking and not blaming because I think it's easy also for parents maybe if they if they get scared or something You know to be angry at their kids right like why did you write back to that person or

Swebliss: um, you know things like that and I think just

Swebliss: Also especially with games and the internet be open minded like if they're doing something maybe that they shouldn't I mean of course you should but I think don't make kids Afraid of it so that they don't want to tell you anything That is a key right because I that it was like that when I was a kid but like I said I Didn't have the same The same tools that they have nowadays, but I didn't have that Um that I couldn't feel that I could talk to my parents about things like that because uh Um, it was you know, they would be angry not doing one thing to be angry at me So it was more like trying to hide it than then then actually and I think just trying to get around that and be That's what people should be aware and and be part of their kids. I try to play for it that even if You're really bad at it. I'm really bad at it

Jon Radoff: Wow, but I run around build a build a building. There's something you can do in fortnight. Maybe maybe you'll be the first person down, but uh Enjoy it. Yeah, and enjoy it. Just find out what your kids are interested in like my kids ended up Trying fortnight not really getting into it. They were much more interested in games where they could be a little more creative And then my kids are also into like more retro-styled games like undertale and terraria and things like that. So You know kids may surprise you in terms of what they're gonna do It might not all be call of duty or fortnight, you know run around killing each other

Swebliss: And also be aware that there's so many good things coming out of it like you know leadership skills Learning how to work in a group and um, you know just uh Taking initiatives and and they create like you said they creative Uh, aspect of it. I mean there's just so many great things that comes out of it Uh, if you look at research, I mean most of it is it's like the majority is like positive just Uh about everything that comes out. They're not so positive is I think the social media aspect and the How people treat each other. So that is what we have to really work on and also can I I think since we are Well, you're we're talking to developers and others here. I think a big portion of that an important Art is to have rules and regular like bound reason stuff in games, right? Because it all starts somewhere and it starts what they are um Many times allowed to do in a game and and there's I mean, I've seen Even on twitch being a streamer for for all these years. I've seen so many Changes in gaming in general like how people could do anything like the everything was allowed in the beginning And uh, I especially as a like streamer that have a lot of you know, you get stalkers you get people trying to A stream's knife you and destroy every game you play and I just I couldn't do anything because um For example playing with the work craft uh when they released the classic I couldn't it took me four hours to walk uh the same distance that would it would usually take 10 minutes Think me four hours because I had so many people killing me over and over and over again because they they could see what I was

Swebliss: Doing on the stream right um there. There's no

Swebliss: Yeah, yeah, but we're talking like a stream thing. So I mean not just like some Hiking and killing but like we were extreme. They they made guilds that was on like they were named like killed speedless And and this was like just I don't know when was classic release. That was not even long time ago And nothing was done today. So I tried I spoke to Blizzard. I was like is there something you can do and they were like Look into it nothing has ever happened So I think you know just kind of putting your foot down and and some things shouldn't be I mean it shouldn't be too strict, but it shouldn't be Not crazy things like that um Like having entire groups with hundreds of people like being all attacking someone that should not be allowed

Jon Radoff: Yeah, I mean, I think the message that I'm hearing is if you're a game developer With a live game and and pretty much all games are gonna be live games from now on even single player games become live games Because they have a whole community Around the game that that's relevant there and you have to be intentional about what you want that community to be if you want it to be the wild wild west To do nothing and then you'll replicate exactly what you just described if you want a different kind of Community that has greater empathy that's open and welcoming to all kinds of people of different backgrounds and life Experiences and stories and whatnot then you have to be intentional about and it takes work

Swebliss: Yeah, yeah, I know I've been talking with you before about like And thoughts and what you can do in and so I know it's also like the technical aspect of trying to develop that because it's just so much of it um, I mean There's games Countess right when I play countess right. I mean there is not a game that I can join without having People being like extremely toxic because it's it's allowed and I think as a streamer in general whether you're You're my own female or just online is like if you choose to be a streamer then you're You're choosing to get hate. That's what people that's how people see it So it's like, but you know if you don't want hate, you shouldn't you shouldn't be a streamer They're basically part of our our job description and that is one of those things that try to work against and even even to kids You know, I see this even a small kid song on like tick-tock and so on they get really mean comments, right From roundins and they don't remove them. They just they let them just stay there on on YouTube or or in tick-tock because it's like this kind of unwritten rule that you're not supposed to like Remove the really bad stuff and I try to tell people that you know what your social media that is your space It's like you're living room or but you know living room on not like your little living room in that app or whatever so You decide what should be allowed there or not and you would never allow someone to stand in your living room and tell you things like that You would throw them out, right? So I try to tell people to do that even even in social media So it's I think it's just something that is kind of rooted in In many and it's probably rooted in this whole like freedom of speech Thing which obviously is a great thing is really good and very important to have freedom of speech But I think freedom of speech should not be freedom of consequence, right?

Jon Radoff: And then yeah, and not and not free and not freedom to enter anyone's living room and expect that you can say whatever you want and not be asked to leave

Swebliss: Exactly exactly. I mean that's this Common sense

Jon Radoff: Exactly, you know people are treated as objects in the online world that that hasn't fully caught up yet We've talked a lot about this idea of virtual mainstreaming meaning The virtual world the metaverse it's real But there's a lot of people who approach it thinking well these are just people like they approach a person like you as Hey, she is a live streamer and she can be an object of Whatever kind of toxic nonsense. I want to I want to send your way because as you put it That's your job you you're supposed to put up with that which is which is completely terrible like you'd never treat a person like that in real life unless you're like a psychopath

Swebliss: No, no exactly. I mean the probably some of them are psychopath Uh, but and far from everyone. I think it's just people have this idea that Uh, yeah, you're the you be like they I don't think people understand exactly What it is to be like on the receiving end of that when especially not when there is hundreds of thousands literally Um, but that do it even though it is like um Um, you know anonymous people also the time um, but I think and that is also something that goes into streaming

Swebliss: I think

Swebliss: Right now like if you want to be streamer that is one aspect that is

Swebliss: Um, it's just you can't get it you can't get away from it. So like I see a lot of people stop streaming just because of that

Swebliss: They can't take it especially women mostly women, but um, you know, they can't take it um because it's just it becomes too much in the end um But again, I'm hoping like that's what I'm fighting for I want that to be better because streaming can be an amazing thing and I think nowadays streaming is very important Also for the gaming industry because I know so many people that goes to twitch to like try to Uh, you know see a game before they decide if they're gonna buy it or not whether it's twitch or or youtube But twitch is a little bit It's more uh personal right because you can they can ask me questions they can't ask a youtuber question so Uh, but if they wonder something that I'm not telling them they can just be writing it and be like so what do you think about this or can you try this or Uh, do they have this setting um, and then I'd be like oh, let's let's check it out and then I can do that so You get like this totally different very personal connection with a streamer in a way that you don't really get Um with a youtuber's in the same it youtubers is more like when you watch something on tv So and that is also why I want more people to start streaming and and realizing it companies After covid especially started to realize Because twitch have been growing a lot of course because so many people be was home and And so many people lost their jobs and they tried to like get a career as a streamer instead and um Yeah, so I think uh More people to twitch and more eyes on twitch like the more companies uh and so on the better I think the community will be too because

Swebliss: Just

Swebliss: Same as with games right people have to be held accountable and that goes for the social media too They can't be like well, we haven't done anything. What was like your platform you can decide if you're gonna have them and you're living a room or not, right?

Swebliss: um

Swebliss: And and what rules you're gonna have there so That goes for all companies and when it goes to twitch especially gaming companies right because If the world for all the amazing games twitch wouldn't be a thing either so they are definitely depending on

Swebliss: And all of you guys

Jon Radoff: and and Businesses generally game game company specifically Really are trying to figure out ways that they can tap into these authentic connections that you have formed with your community because Your community trusts you. It's what they call influencers And I'm just curious like what have your experiences been like working with game companies. What should game companies know about working with someone like you

Swebliss: Um, well, I mean before before clubhouse I didn't actually know that many developers because as a streamer you kind of have this And a big wall behind you or like between you and the developers Which I could never really get past and that is the the agencies right so The which I mean they're doing a great job too because that's also how you find jobs and they're making all of our jobs easier But personally I just love having direct contact with the big company and the developers that

Swebliss: makes it

Swebliss: Like one of those examples that One of the companies that stun that is the EA that did the Game changer program. So through the game changer program. I could be Like a apex game changer and I got to fly to To Los Angeles and actually meet the developers like hang out and since I'm extremely interested in in design and I didn't Like at that time. I didn't have the chance to lead meet a lot of people in the industry That was so exciting to just like I was probably the nervous I I soon did in on a roof like and I was like how did you do that texture? So I got so many questions because it was so much fun. So personally Even though I know it takes time but try to also have uh for them like personal the relationships with streamers And not just having like this The agencies in between right

Jon Radoff: The agency seems like a job-based business sense because yeah You're it's not like you're An advertising venue and they're just placing ad units It you have the connection with your community where they're looking for your knowledge and understanding and That interpretation really of what the game designers had in mind with the game what's special about it? You you can be more like an ambassador than yeah, you know, just someone who's talking up a game to To get views or something

Swebliss: Exactly, I mean and you see that a lot you see these platforms showing off right that have hundreds and thousands of different streamers and then they just send it out to everyone like I can just click a button and be like except to get a Sponsorship or or something and then I'll specifically this game a certain day and for this many hours um and Absolutely That can be good for some aspects. I mean if you want to reach like a big mass of like very small streamers in order to like kind of be raised up on the And the browsing on twitch and so on but I think it's more crucial to kind of just Yeah, create those close relationships too Because that's like I From my perspective that's just It becomes a totally different thing when you talk to or about a company where you actually maybe met the people Or like yeah, you've been speaking to them and you're like going like going to know them and and it becomes such a Like the viewers can feel it right so they feel that it's like an authentic thing. It's not just This is a blah blah, you know, I guess very salicy and it doesn't become salicy because like you're not just talking about this Thing to get Humanity. Yeah, it's like people behind it and also show

Swebliss: I think

Swebliss: We want to see more we want to see the developers like not just like everyone I'm talking about everyone we want to like I don't know make tiktoks to get a tiktok account and do goofy dances like Some developer they would never dance in his life get him to like try to do it Like people will just eat that up. They would love it right so it's I think it's also the company itself Kind of just becoming a like real people instead of just the Yeah, like just yay or or something that kind of like have a bad taste in in some people's mouth But it's like if you're not just a company if you're actually hey, this is this person That's awesome and I've noticed that when I worked with so many brands and like my one of my brand main main companies that I work with right now is LG Which is also like this huge company, right? Everyone knows what LG is everyone else like Either a TV or something, but they don't know anything who is like the people behind that, right? So when I did that like it was actually a guy from LG that it was total nerd just like me So when we we were putting this campaign together we actually started talking Games I think for like three hours when we supposed to have him for like 45 minutes But we really hit it off and then he came over and like I was live streaming when they came and put up the TV And he was like talking and my viewers were like wow, you know like they were Like it became a totally different thing because like wow, this is the person and he's so cool And wow, he's really good at English and he had like You know, it kind of like yeah, I had like long hair and like ponytail and then has like little earrings with like skulls in them and stuff and he's like wow, this is so cool You know they they connected the company and they could see like a gamer, right? Like they didn't want to see this like a like a super model perfect or guy in a suit or whatever They wanted to see someone they could relate to And then That is something I recommend And all developers to do

Jon Radoff: Yeah, it's still be personalized and it's important for people to remember that there's people working there They care about what they're doing You know their engineers their developers they Are people that conform connections with the community as well. That's tremendous advice Emma we're coming up to the to the end of our time But I I want to thank you for being part of this because this was just so packed with information about Culture Both the positives and the negatives the the life of a live streamer how you've been able to build a career around this You know to kind of maybe wrap things up though There's a lot of people that are going to watch this where they're thinking about becoming a live streamer or parents are watching it And their kids have said hey, I want a twitch streamer. I want to be a youtuber You've shared some advice already about like just pay attention be sensitive to the communities and and become Literate in their media consumption, but for that person who wants to make a career at this what advice what guidance would you offer someone?

Swebliss: Oh, I would say well to become a streamer today Because it's just such a huge market and so many people are trying I think People should put more focus on trying to come up with content instead of actually just Putting all their time into buying the most expensive gear and setting up like fancy overlays and the Emotes and like you see so many people that have all that but they have like Melvier's right so they're sitting there and That it's a little bit depressing and so I think just work on like if they put that same Time that they put into doing all that into just trying to figure out like what is it that I Can kind of bring to the table. What is it? I can do that? That you kind of put a personal spin on it kind of like when I Uh, yeah, around two rows by doing art. Um, I mean it can be a certain theme or just hey if you like roll play do do do an act or I mean it can be anything Um, I think put the time on that because it doesn't matter like you can have the most amazing overlay and and take in cameras and all that And then that's not gonna make a give you any viewers, but um But if you have amazing content you can have a really shitty webcam probably even a shitty sound and People gonna be like they're still gonna be watching because it's like wow, you know like what either That is so weird what the heck is that person doing or it's like wow this person is so good at it or Is doing things in a way you haven't thought about or is teaching like I said like things that they want to learn they're giving value, right? Um, so that is that is like number one and also I mean you Should have good enough internet Of course, uh because you're gonna upload so it's the upload that is important and and Put more focus on the lighting than the camera because you can have a you can make a kind of a very cheap webcam look like Like a million box if you have great lighting Um, so the lighting is so much more important if you have an amazing camera, but like really bad lighting is not gonna help anyway, so yeah

Swebliss: and

Jon Radoff: Plug lamps in here. It's it's like a hundred bucks. It's the cheapest thing you can invest in if you want to Not look terrible This is so good This has been so awesome and that that's a great punchline on this so you heard it here everybody. This is a creator economy Right like that's what's exciting about the metaverse is this whole Confluence of creativity from games from performance from making art It's a whole new range of experiences that people are having here and it's something new But it's about creativity and I'm excited about all the jobs being created the opportunities the businesses And also just the the unknown world that we're going into here where we're gonna discover all kinds of New things together. So by the way we'll put down in the show nights uh link to

Swebliss: Emma's twitch stream go check it out and get a sense of the art the game playing all the stuff that that Emma is doing there and

Jon Radoff: Subscribe down below to the video here on this channel because I have a lot of fun talking to people like Emma who are bringing all these different Perspectives in the business culture and technology of the metaverse. So Emma. Thank you so much for being part of this today

Swebliss: Thank you so much for letting me be here It was uh, it was really fun. I wanted to stay for hours. So thank you so much Also if anyone is interested to learn more about this they can reach out to me because I also do consult thing in this Or like small companies and so on But yeah super fun to be here. Thank you so much John

Jon Radoff: Excellent. Thank you Emma

Swebliss: These are my sweetestimetallies